So I have been reading over some stuff on the “Toronto Blessing” a movement in a Vineyard church for a time that focused very much on what they called “holy laughter.” Now I know that many of you aren’t very familiar with the concepts of spiritual gifts, so I will just tell you that the Bible teaches that followers of Jesus are perfectly capable of praying for the sick and injured and they will be healed if it is Gods will, and through prayer people can be giving insight into a persons life so that they can help those people better, and then there is speaking in tongues which is either speaking in a different language that exists, usually for prophesying to someone there who speaks that language or for praising God, or there is the the speaking in tongues which is completely intelligible to anyone around and that is about your soul speaking directly to God, expressing praise or desires or anything else. But there are a few others listed in the Bible, but mostly I’m interested as what is perceived as spiritual gifts that are not biblical. In the time of the Toronto Blessing this included people laughing uncontrollably, acting drunk (and they weren’t…..I know what you were thinking.), making animal noises, and a few other things that I can’t remember right now. Now, I was thinking how do you discern what is a gift from God and what is not. I’ll tell you that I would not quickly look at loosing my faculties to the point that I was making animal noises as a gift from God. I got to thinking that a good litmus test for this, and most anything, to see if it is Godly or not is 1 Corinthians 13, the chapter on love. It says “though I speak in the tongues of men and angels I am only a resounding gong or cymbal” which means nothing is worth much if you don’t have love for people, or if you aren’t conveying love. Apparently the church that sorta started the “Toronto Blessing” (in Toronto….duh) got the boot from the Association of Vineyard Chruches because they lost site on preaching the gospel and got caught up in receiving these non-biblical as well as biblical gifts and didn’t do much evangelism or do much more then seek out an experience instead of extending the love of God to others outside their walls. The more I thought about this the more I started thinking that I never would have stayed at the Vineyard if this focus overshadowed preaching the gospel. I’m all about God using gifts to reveal himself to people, or to work in people, but after receiving this blessing I believe we are called to go out and spread the love of Christ to others. Which sorta means that Christianity isn’t all about what I can get from it, and it is more about extending what you get from it to others. I think that in Mark 16:17-20 lays out two classes of signs that accompany the apostles and subsequently our ministries. One is for other people, it is about extending the love of Christ, and those are healing the sick and driving out demons, then the other kind is more the power of God being revealed at a singular level which includes the drinking poison bit, and the snake biting part. And finally speaking in tongues could fall into both depending on what kind of speaking in tongues it is.
I’ve been pondering a lot of different stuff lately, but I sorta got a wild hair to look up some info on this stuff. I’m interested to hear more about the “Toronto Blessing” that started in 1994 from people who had either been there, or just know more about it then I do. Also at what point do you say to yourself “Hey, my ministry has lost touch with the concept of spreading this good stuff God is giving me, and I’m too focused on the game that spiritual gifting can become.” And yes, it does become a game at some point…just ask an aging member of the Jesus Movement…like my Mom, who said after a while lengthening peoples legs and regrowing fingers became a game and she decided that there was more to ministry then just that.
At any rate, I like to hear thoughts in general on gifting…espeically gifting not mentioned in the Bible, and I will field any questions from people who don’t understand what I’m talking about or who just thinks that this stuff is really weird. So, now to bed with me.
Thank you, and Goodnight
Josh Bubniak says
I was at the Vineyard in Champaign at that point. Granted, I was about 10 but I participated in Joel’s Place and was there more than a few nights a week with my parents. I would love to talk to you about it and answer any questions that I can. Feel free to email me or call my cell at two one seven, eight four one, five four eight one.
Bless ya
Janine says
Hey, Ben! What an interesting topic! I was really interested in what you had to say next. I think the tie in with love is really key.
My thoughts….
I never went to any of the Toronto Blessing events (but I know plenty who flocked to go). However, I did go to Brownsville. Have you heard about that? It was happening around the same time the ‘Toronto Blessing’ thing occured. It was officially called “the Brownsville Revival.” It was in Pensacola Florida. I know they still have church down there, but I believe it’s died down a bit.
I have very conflicting emotions about all of it. I know that when I went I had an AMAZING experience. I mean flat out amazing. It’s hard for me to look at it and say some of it could have been flesh more then God. I DO KNOW that God WAS there and that I had God experiences… but I do struggle with ‘the gift of laughter’, gold dust, barking like dogs, etc.
It is said that there are portals where there’s an ‘open heaven’ or a ‘door’ that occurs. Basicially, it’s where there’s a doorway or “portal” in the third heaven, second heaven, and first heaven. Basically, the power of God is very strong there because there is no outside influence blocking anything. (i.e. principalities, powers, etc.) I do believe that. There are a few places in scripture that talk about this – however, it is Never called a ‘portal.’
I think that God DOES give joy and laughter. I don’t want to be one who says God isn’t funny or isn’t joyful. It’s very hard for me to discern if the person is laughing like a hiena because God is truly touching them … or because of other reasons. I can remember one time where I truly laughed… just laughed after being touched by God because I just felt so free, joyful, etc.
Making noices… boy, what a tuffy. I have been told that God asks us to do things that are out of our character to show that we have faith in God and are being obedient, and in that, comes healing, freedom, etc. I can tell you that, to my natural mind, that sounds RIDICULOUS! However, I have seen/heard it happen and I saw that the person did have an experience. So I dunno.
You can definitely say that I was, once, a person who followed these things and sought to experience them. I was also surrounded by people who did it.
I feel like I am babbling… I can’t seem to get it all out.
To sum it up: at this point in my life I find myself more cynical and skeptical about those things then I once was. I truly don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing. I know that my cynical attitude has been a barrier for me to really recieve from God in healthy ways.
What is BAD is when we seek after these experiences more then God…. it turns into this experience frenzy. It isn’t edifying to God in the least. I think, we are actually flowing in our flesh and giving satan more glory then God because it isn’t about GOD anymore, but ourselves. We aren’t growing, we are just trying to maintain mountain top experiences. There is no foundation or stability in that.
Did that help?
Jae
Lauren says
I personally like to think of the gifts of the Spirit as a means to an end. So if I was trying to judge whether a gift was from God or not, I would try to look at what that gift was accomplishing. If someone received healing through barking like a dog, bark on! I would find it unlikely that God would do such a thing in a public place because it would scare people off, but God does weird stuff I don’t get all the time, so that’s not a good test. There are a lot of things that God does that are not specifically addressed in the Bible, and I don’t think that the lack of biblical recording of a particular gift is a good reason to dimiss it, accuse the person of making it up, or blame the devil for it. I also believe there are good solid symptoms of a ministry that has become focused on the experience and the reason for the experience. When people who are manifesting the Spirit are being pushed to the front and given special notice and attention (not the kind of attention given by discretely helping them to a private place), when it is claimed that you must exhibit gifts of the Spirit in order to be saved or fully in line with God, when there is a lack of interest in branching out and including more and more people, when newcomers are frightened or feel unwelcome, these are clear signs that something is wrong. None of these things require a person to say, “this is a gift of the spirit, that is not”.
Let me also add that I am more and more convinced that our small group needs to do the praying on the quad thing.;)
Siberian says
Wow. What a complicated topic.
First Note. 1 Corinthians 12-14, the bible text everyone uses, is not a systematic theology chapter on gifts. No. Most of us wish it were. What I find ironic is that it’s a chapter trying to put gifts back into their proper place after (presumably) an incident like Brownsville or Toronto. And we don’t listen. Paul argues that some gifts are more publicly useful than others. Consequently, those gifts should be given a greater precedence in a public setting. Incidents like Brownsville and Toronto, though they begin as a revival with the best of fruits, can gain such prominence and place such an unhealthy weight on a particular gift above the others that it becomes counterproductive
Second Note. I think we could stand to make a distinction between gifts and manifestations of the Spirit. People manifest the Holy Spirit in all sorts of ways. Shaking, trembling, laughing, grieving, temperature changes, sensations of oil on the skin, falling, apparent drunkenness. Laughing? Gold dust? Barking? Setting the weirder stuff aside, I don’t think it’s really fair to NT usage to call manifestations “gifts”. Gifts have a specific, clear use – even tongues. Manifestations are those things that don’t particularly fit that paradigm, that are external evidence of God doing an inward work. Manifestations aren’t the point, nor the goal.
Point woof. I mean, three. So what about the weird stuff? I think Lauren’s right. You measure a tree by its fruits. I have to say, one thing Ben Hoerr (a pastor at Champaign Vineyard) said during a class on Vineyard history sticks out in my mind. He said he was often unsure about the exact nature of some things that happened during that time. But he also said that what did happen was that people were set free from years of “religiosity” that had led them to believe God worked within their boundaries alone. “Religion”, in this sense of the word, is quite hostile to God, and is perhaps the downfall of much of the American church today.
Are people growing in their love for God? Are they being set free from addictive patterns that prevent them from a productive, fulfilling life? Are they showing love to others in ways they never would have before, and helping others to be welcomed into God’s plans for the world? These things matter. They are the kingdom of God moving here in Champaign, God acting to draw people to himself and to his community, the church.
So we end up a little strange. And maybe some things aren’t quite explained. But that’s the mystery of it, and the adventure. If nothing exciting ever happened, and we understood it all, would it really be God that we were experiencing? Or something less than the divine?
If you’d like to maybe taste a little of that, our small group meets @ 7 most Thursdays @ the house.
Janine says
LOL @ “If you want a taste of it come to our small group” !!!
I wish I could word myself as well as siberian and lauren!
I think I am just so busy… and that my brain is going in TEN million directions – that I don’t take the time to make sure it sounds right.
I guess that makes me almost counter productive. lol